Podcast: Inside The Bradfield Centre 41, Joe Glover, The Marketing Meetup

In this episode, James chats to Joe the co-founder of The Marketing Meetup which has grown from a local Cambridge Meet up to a global community of 29,000 professionals. We learn about Joe’s background, the origins of the meetup, his strategy for growth and what’s next.

Transcript

James Parton:
Welcome to the Inside The Bradfield centre Podcast, where we tell the stories of the companies, partners, and staff that make the Bradfield centre community so special. I’m James Parton, the managing director of the Bradfield centre, and joining us on today’s episode is Joe Glover, who is the co-founder of The Marketing Meetup. So, Joe, thanks for taking the time to come onto the show today. Why don’t we kick things off by just letting you introduce yourself and telling us a little bit more about your background.

Joe Glover:
Sure. Thank you for having me as well. It’s really appreciated. It’s a lot fun doing this podcasting thing. So, my name’s Joe Glover, I’m the founder of a community called The Marketing Meetup. We’re about 29,000 marketers across the world, united by a shared desire to learn about marketing, connect with other marketers and do it in a way which prioritises kindness and looking after each other. The way that manifests itself in the real world is that we do online events presently, but we’re also bringing back in-person events in 13 locations, I think. Then we’d also started in New York pre COVID and looking to bring it to America at some point, over the next couple of years as well. So, yeah. Lot’s going on and there’re a lot of fun.

James Parton:
Yeah. Exciting. So, what did you do pre The Marketing Meetup? What does your background look like, how did you get here?

Joe Glover:
So, I was a marketing manager in a small company. So, in fact, I’ve had two marketing manager roles in my career. I started The Marketing Meetup when I was 24 as a side project, but all that time I was working as a marketing manager as well, while I was growing The Meetup. I used to work for a company called Business of Software. They were a really fabulous company based in Cambridge, who ran events in the UK and USA. I was really lucky that for the duration of that time then, my education into marketing was watching talks by people like Rory Sutherland and Seth Godin, listening to them and literally just taking in that information and sharing that with the Business of Software community. So, that was really, really great. It was a real… I think Tim Ferris speaks about doing his own masters program that he designed himself, Business of Software felt a little bit like that for me.

I spent three years there and then moved on to be a marketing manager at a local agency, where we were doing stuff like SEO, PPC for retail brands. Again, that was a nice education really, into how the real world works, specifically in a little bit more of a commercial world. But also a little bit more about tactical marketing as well. So, two fairly small companies, and all the time while I was at both, I was growing The Marketing Meetup on the side.

James Parton:
So, that’s interesting. You say you were 24 when you first came up with the idea with The Meetup. What was the driver of that? Did you feel like the marketing community wasn’t being served by something in Cambridge, and there was a gap? Or did you just have that passion inside yourself to create something and drive something forward? How did it come about?

Joe Glover:
Yeah. I wish I had such a high opinion of myself that either of those solutions sound like they would’ve been a good idea. Honestly, you may hear this already in how I’m speaking, but I’m far more introverted than I’m extroverted. Even today, I turned 30 the other day and I’ll still do exactly the same as what I did when I was 24, which is I’d walk into a networking event and I’d be the guy that’s hid the corner, the person who would be on their phone, hoping somebody would say hello to them, but so often they wouldn’t. The reason for that was twofold really. So, the first was those circles that folks spent their time congregating in and you had to break into one of them and say hello, absolutely terrifying.

But then the second part of that was that whenever I did that, I just remember having so many surface level conversations, where folks were just trying to sell something at me, or were just bothered about my job title. If I didn’t have a budget or a job title to match those expectations, it’s a bit dramatic, but I felt like I was cast aside. That’s just not a nice environment. It’s not a nice experience. So, I just wanted to create a place which felt safe and welcoming, and people could come and learn and get better together, and feel like they genuinely were valued as a human being, because that was my experience, that I wasn’t. So, I just created that space and it really wasn’t a particularly mindful act. It was just like, right. Well, I’m going to do this. I put an event up on meetup.com and lo and behold people came. So, we just carried on and the snowball started rolling downhill from there really.

James Parton:
You can definitely see where that kindness thing came from. That’s clearly one of those main motivators in terms of, as you say, people dealing with people at a human level, rather than just seeing them as a business opportunity.

Joe Glover:
100%. I think that’s the important thing, because I mean, what I do as The Marketing Meetup, running marketing events, it’s barely revolutionary. Anyone can run a marketing event. It’s really not that difficult. If you’ve got a connection to Zoom and someone semi-interesting to speak, then you can do it. But I think people value not so much what we do, but how we choose to do it. Of course, there will be folks who have that far more functional relationship with The Marketing Meetup, where they do just value the information we put out, because it is bloody good. But for the most part, I think people come because they know that they’re going to be able to come together and enjoy that experience as a human being first and foremost, and maybe a marketer even second, which is nice. It’s a human experience for me.

James Parton:
So, in a music analogy, was it an overnight success, or were you a band that played loads of pubs for five years before anyone showed up, other than that was related to you? How quickly did it build momentum? Was it a slow burn? Was it a lot of hard work? Did you have those crisis’s of faith that you were doing something that people weren’t interested in? How did it build momentum?

Joe Glover:
Yeah. Well, I’m a little bit like a Labrador. I’m just happy. So, in the first event people came, they learnt, reconnected and they were kind to each other. So, genuinely, I felt like I had achieved what I needed to achieve right there. So, it wasn’t that story of like, oh my God. I’m grinding and stuff like that. I was just having a nice time. To be honest, six years later, I’m still just having a nice time. If you take a more conventional view on success, lots and lots of people engaging, lots of activity, sounding really impressive, then of course, things took a little bit longer. It was evenings and weekends driving literally around the country to run events for, in some cases, 30 people.

But for often, a lot more than that. I mean the Cambridge first event had 50 people come, which I know will be a really great success by a lot of meet up standards, but it just kept on growing and growing. We got to the point where we had 120, 130 coming most months. So, I probably answered that question in two ways and say, it was an immediate success because hit the thing that it needed to hit, and there is still a growth period where we are doing more things that people will value, and it’s still a lot of fun. So, yeah. It’s a grind, but I never really considered it difficult. It’s always been a hobby that turned into something quite nice over the course of time.

James Parton:
Yeah. So, I guess in the same way that you said you hated that being judged by job title or budget, success of The Meetup was probably just someone else showing up. So, you never had that grand plan of world domination, but I guess because you’ve had that authenticity in the way that you’ve gone about things, it’s just snowballed from there. I mean, 29,000 people, it’s nothing to be sniffed at. You’ve done so incredibly well.

Joe Glover:
It’s been good fun. I think, you know that thing where people say, if you’re smiling when you are on the phone, then people realise it? Then I think it’s the same with The Meetup. We’ve done some stupid things over the course of time. Like we got Sean Paul to record our Coronavirus, it’s going to be okay, message. Just because it felt like everyone else was saying the same thing, so we just wanted to do something a little bit different that felt fun. I think that’s the truth, that I think if you’ve got a pure intention on wanting to look after people, and then you’re having fun in the process, then other people can’t help but want to be part of it. But while you’re doing all of that, you’re having a lot of fun. I don’t know. If I get up on my high horse just a little bit, then I do think a sense of fun is something that’s really important in business, and not something to just say, ah, it is a by thought. I think it’s a really important part of the process.

James Parton:
Yeah. Absolutely. So, is it got to the point now where it’s more than just yourself, have you got a team that’s helping you out? What does the structure look like?

Joe Glover:
Yeah. So, we’ve got myself and my now co-founder James. So, James, I met through The Marketing Meetup in Cambridge about two years into the process. But since then, over these past four years, he’s been nothing but phenomenal. So, we made it official and called him the co-founder at the beginning of this year. Then we’ve Elle, who is the world’s kindest human being and the operations person for The Marketing Meetup. She is the only person who has any semblance of organisation for the company, so that’s lovely. She joined at the end of last year, and I don’t know how we did anything without her now, but she’s great. Then we have a series of organisers across the world, each representing their local groups. So, each location is ran by a volunteer closer to their home.

So, I think on last count we had about 15 of those, but that number changes and grows and stuff over the course of time. So, yeah. I guess I sit in the middle, but there’s an awful lot of people who work together to make it happen. Not even to mention the small army of freelancers we’ve got working for us as well, which actually is… We couldn’t have got to where we are without them, and couldn’t have afforded to pay for staff with their specialist skills without them being freelance. So, I think that’s been a really important part of how we’ve grown.

James Parton:
Right. I mean, I’ll talk to you in a second about how you’ve grown over the last 18 months, but if you don’t mind just jumping in the time machine and going back 18 months. Having built all of that momentum and having that positivity around what you’re doing. I mean, tell us what it felt like when pandemic hit, and for someone that’s organizing in-person events, did it just feel like… I mean, obviously at The Bradfield, we work with so many different event organizers, and obviously it was such a punch in the gut for so many people to suddenly have that rug pulled from underneath themselves. So, take us back to those dark days, and what did that feel like?

Joe Glover:
Well, it was really sad. So, we had 140 events planned for 2020, and we’d literally just run our first event in New York as well, so it felt like there was that incredible sense of momentum that you were speaking about, where people would come in, they were enjoying it, it was growing bigger and better than ever before et cetera. In fact, let me retract that, because I don’t think bigger is better. So, it was growing bigger than ever before, and it probably was better, but not because it was bigger. I remember on whatever date it was, March the 13th, I think it was, I recorded a video to the community, where I was sat in a dark room and said, “Look, I don’t think it’s safe to carry on doing the events. I don’t know what we’re going to do, but we’re going to figure it out.”

Then we had to figure it out. I probably spent about three or four days, and I think it’s important to be honest, just sat that week, pushing a mouse around a screen, feeling quite anxious and very sad. I’d just gone full time in The Marketing Meetup maybe a year before. So, not only was it this thing that I’d been building that was on the line, it was our salary, my wage. So, it was scary. But I think, my mum said for whatever reason, that weekend, I decided to channel my granddad and just decided to be a little bit bolshy and have a little bit of a moment of, why the hell not? It was in that weekend when we canceled all those events, that I just emailed the most famous marketers I could think of, the people I admire most in this world, in the professional capacity, and asked them if they wanted to be involved in an online series.

The nice thing was, at that time, that of course every in-person event was canceled, so all of a sudden all these phenomenal people had their schedules opened. I probably had first mover advantage because we canceled our events early to protect the community, which also meant that all of a sudden these people were having their things canceled, but not many people asking them to attend their events. So, we got Rand Fishkin, and Rory Sutherland and Mark Ritson, all of whom are really, really influential human beings in the marketing space say yes, to come and do a webinar schedule with us. That’s where the momentum for the next 18 months came from, was really those couple of weeks where we put together genuinely a world leading schedule around basically nothing. It was a really transformative period.

James Parton:
So, I guess the takeaway there is not having that fear of just reaching out to these, I guess, superstars of the industry, and just chancing it and seeing if you can actually pull it off.

Joe Glover:
Genuinely. So, we had a speaker dropout on Friday, so that’s only the second time in two years that it’s happened. We run our webinars every Tuesdays, and so all of a sudden I had a space to fill for four days time. I emailed a guy called Sam Conis, who’s one of my favorite authors and said, “Sam, do you want to come and give a talk for The Marketing Meetup?” He said, “Yeah, all right then.” So, that’s a lesson that has been put into place not only at the beginning of COVID, but is something that I continue to this day. Actually, it’s a practice that I try to do quite a lot.

So, I put a post up on LinkedIn a couple of weeks ago, where I called out Ryan Reynolds, the Hollywood actor, to come and speak at The Marketing Meetup. We didn’t hear back from him, but if you don’t ask, you don’t get. In that process, I think that post had nearly 1800 likes on LinkedIn or something like that. So, folks were getting behind it as well. People know the it’s a bit of fun, but if it happens, why the hell not? People are just people. I genuinely don’t have a belief that anybody is unreachable until they say, no. I really don’t want to do this. We’ll be trying to get Barack Obama on The Marketing Meetup one day, why not?

James Parton:
Absolutely. So, I mean, extending that kind of thought then, I mean, was it a case of… Because obviously you started to get the international momentum, you mentioned the New York event. I mean, unless you suddenly stumble on a marketing budget that’s going to help push awareness out there, was it more led by the kind of speakers and grabbing those high level speakers that could actually bring their own communities to you? Or was it more of an organic social media growth? What was your marketing plan around that? Obviously it’s a marketing meetup, so you yourself are a marketing case study in terms of how you built this community, right?

Joe Glover:
Yeah. Absolutely. It’s funny because you use the word marketing plan. I mean, maybe it’s something that I did intuitively, but there wasn’t a big plan. That being said, the largest sources of growth for The Marketing Meetup pre COVID was word of mouth, was word of mouth and social media. Although, debatably, social media is a version of word of mouth these days anyway. Really the magic trick there is to produce something that is built with people in mind, and then ask them to share it. Really it’s as simple as that, because if something is good and people know that it’s been there for them, and you know that they’re genuinely there to help and stuff, there for their best interest, they will share it because that’s the co-creation experience of community. Community isn’t something that is a one way broadcast. It’s something that is co-created, and therefore you need those community members to share.

Otherwise, you don’t really have much of a community at all. I would say over these past 18 months, then the speakers following has been really useful. So, for example, Mark Ritson, I think he has 130,000 followers on LinkedIn as an example. He was generous enough to post about us both times he’s spoken at The Marketing Meetup, and it’s undeniable that that’s been a really useful audience builder for The Marketing Meetup. I think the other thing is that the last element of that is not so much a channel, but more about consistency, which is that people know that we are going to be running an event every Tuesday morning at 8:30, and therefore people turn up. These events have been our biggest audience builder, and by audience, I mean most specifically our newsletter list, that’s how we judge the success of growth of the community.

Although of course, growth is interesting, but I don’t think it’s the be all and end all, and it’s certainly not everything like so many folks choose to make it out to be. So, that is our growth metric for the community, but I’m far more interested in how many people are coming to our events and whether they’re enjoying it, and whether people are being supported. I always had that mindset, really that’s done us well because growth has followed from providing a great experience, rather than the other way around.

James Parton:
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So, I mean, you’ve stopped me using the word plan a couple of times. It feels more organic and experimental I guess, and throw it against a wall and see what sticks. But what’s your opinion on the effect of lockdown? Do you think that you would’ve always gone international and built the size of community you have done over time organically? Or do you think COVID and the, as you say, the removal of barriers, should we say, around geography and logistics of running in-person events sped things up, and you got there faster? What’s your take? Do you think you’d have got here anyway, or do you think the acceleration of things due to the removal of those traditional barriers has been a blessing, for the growth of the community?

Joe Glover:
It was definitely a blessing. I remember being sat one day on a train to Newcastle, running an event, which I was on the train to run an event that evening. I remember being sat on that train, and you know how there’s always a public transport weirdo, the person who you don’t want to sit next to? Well, that day that person was me, because I was sat there on the train and I was crying, and I kept crying because I was exhausted. I didn’t want to be there and I was lonely, and this was all going on and I was running these events, and it was right before COVID. But the point on this is that the in-person event thing, the schedule that I was maintaining, traveling around as I was, it wasn’t becoming sustainable. We were aware that, so this is James and I, we were aware that we were just chasing our tails and we weren’t building things forward.

So, really, it is regretful that it had to be a global pandemic that forced it to happen, but it was great for the business, with the obvious caveats that none of us wanted it to happen in the first place. But it was great for the business to force that inflection point and say, look. We need to be doing something else. Otherwise, we’re going to be doing this forever. Because the schedule was so unrelenting there weren’t those moments to sort of think, okay, what are we going to do now to bring it forward? What are we going to do to do something different? It was just a constant churn of running in-person events, travel, recovery, travel, recovery, event, et cetera. Especially now I’m a dad as well. I’ve become a dad during COVID. I look back and I’m like, how the bloody hell did I have the energy? It was crazy, but it definitely forced us to switch up the strategy, and gladly so, albeit with the obvious caveat applied. So, yeah. It was a good inflection moment and did change everything.

James Parton:
So, have you observed or seen any differences in the way that you curate the content of the meetups, the speakers, how you maybe monitor and police the community interactions as you’ve moved from quite a specific geography, like Cambridge into UK, and now international? Have you seen a change in how the community interacts with each other? Or do you think the way that you set those ground rules for the community have just served you well, and it’s carried through as it’s spread to different countries?

Joe Glover:
Definitely the latter. But there is an element of the former, in that I guess these conversations, the change you’ll notice is that the conversations have to take place in public one way or another. Of course, folks can interact separately and one to one on LinkedIn or email or whatever, if they want to grab a coffee. But a lot of the conversations in the community are happening in our Facebook group, or they’re happening in the chat feature during one of our webinars or something like that. So, you’re able to see that stuff, you’re able to see those dialogues, which you don’t see at an in-person event, where people are having separate conversations and stuff like that. So, that’s been quite lovely. I’d say, in terms of policing, I’ve actually done the opposite of what you would logically expect, which is that I’ve just trusted people to be adults, and come into these conversations as adults.

I’ve done next to no policing. I’ve set the tone with, listen, say hello and be positively lovely. But at no point… I think I’ve had to intervene maybe once or twice. But other than that, I say, “Look. This isn’t a company. This isn’t me sat here as the CEO. This is all of us in the same boat together, and we are co-creating this experience. So, if we are co-creating this experience, let’s co-police it as well.” So, people call each other out in a really honest and open way, but I think that’s great, because they call each other out and they have a conversation, then they move forward. But I think everyone comes knowing that the tone of the group and the tone of the events is one of seeking for the positivity, rather than seeking for the negativity, which is a rare corner of the internet, one would say.

James Parton:
Yeah, yeah. Congratulations on finding that. Yeah.

Joe Glover:
Yeah. We got lucky. I mean, I’ve got to say that it becomes more and more relevant. So, the other day we had someone come in on the chat feature, who was quite clearly a troll. They used a term which was completely unacceptable, but they came in, they came into the online event. They popped that term into the chat feature and then they left. That’s given me sleepless nights since, because there is very little I can do in an open form event like what we run to police something like that happening again. The one thing that we did do is that straight away, as soon as someone said the thing that they said, then I just said, “Look, I’m going to try and boot this person.”

Then the next message was, “Okay, they’re gone.” Then the third message was, “I’m really, really sorry, everyone.” What I got back in return was, “Look, we get it. There’s not a lot you can do about it. So, we really appreciate you communicating us through that process.” That was the end of it. So, I think as long as you’re communicating in a really human way, with the most positive of intentions and you’re honest and open and do so consistently, people get it, they understand, and they want to be on your side and help you through that process. I think that co-creation thing, so, so important. Same as all the buzz words, honesty, authenticity, humanity, it’s all important.

James Parton:
So, I mean, whilst we’re on that thread of what the experience has been like through lockdown, you touched on one of the positives of being able to see the conversations that would’ve taken place one on one or in one of those circles that you talked about earlier. I mean, what’s your take on the experience of online versus offline, or hybrid as we’re starting to see? Do you think the community has adapted and online is here to stay? I guess it probably is in your situation, because you’re now servicing an international community. So, it’s going to be logistically impossible for you to be in multiple places at the same time. So, how do you see that shift? What’s your view on that, both from an experience perspective, but also the technology involved and all those kinds of things?

Joe Glover:
So, it was really interesting when COVID kicked off, because there was that mad scramble in the tech space to create something which could recreate the experience of the live in-person event. I reflect on that and I think it was barking up the wrong tree, because I believe that every platform has its strengths and every platform has its weaknesses, and you should be creating an event that matches each of those. So, for me, a real strength of online events in the context of The Marketing Meetup, and it may be different for other people, so please don’t generalize my experiences. I’m only giving an opinion here, but for us, the real strength came through education, through online platforms because we’re able to distribute lessons and education en masse, relatively easy, very quickly, cheaply, and bring really, really phenomenal talent in front of people who wouldn’t be able to experience that in-person.

We wouldn’t get Rory Sutherland to come to one of our Norwich event because it’s a million miles away from where he lives. So, that was one advantage of online events. In-person, it’s undeniable that there is a far better connection that you make in-person than you do in an online event. The chat feature for The Marketing Meetup is phenomenal. Literally in an hour, we’ll get over 1000 messages with people chatting, supporting, speaking about the content, et cetera, et cetera. But is that as meaningful as seeing someone eye to eye, shaking their hand or giving them a hug, if you’re comfortable at the COVID world? Then no, of course it isn’t. So, a real strength of in-person is that connection. So, what we’ve said is that with The Marketing Meetup, then we are going to be having a more educational angle with our online events, and a more connection focus for our in-person events.

I think for hybrid, at the scale of event that we run, I’m not a big fan. But that’s because we have less than 100 people in the room at any one time, so they’re relatively small events. I think if you’re running a big multinational conference, you look at a Dream Force or an inbound for HubSpot, something like that, I can understand how a hybrid experience could work in both those situations, because you’ve got a vast amount of people there in-person, and you’ll have a vast amount of people there online. So, really, I think it depends on the event that you are running. But for us, at our scale, I’m focusing on playing to the strengths of each event, rather than trying to create this happy medium.

I think for the most part in everything I do, I aim for love, and I mean it in the most sincere sense, as I aim for love, then even if people get to eight out of 10, then that’s great. But I think there’s a big, big gray space in between love and hate. I think that’s where most people go, and I think that’s where most hybrid experiences will go as well, that gray space which nobody really cares about. So, yeah. That’s a humble opinion on the hybrid events.

James Parton:
Yeah, no. Interesting. So, in that vein, I mean, at least in the UK, things seem to be taking a turn for the better in terms of the end of restrictions. So, as you come into ’22, what’s the future look like? I mean, how are you assessing things like when the timing is right to come back to face to face events? What’s on the roadmap for this year? Well, I say roadmap, what am I doing? I know there’s no plan. So, what does the year look like for you guys?

Joe Glover:
Great. I like that we’ve installed this check on ourselves, 30 minute [inaudible 00:30:55] So, we are bringing back in-person events from next month. Well, in fact, even mid this month. So, we’re recording in March, and it’s weird in the UK. I was saying this with Elle yesterday, who works for us, that it’s weird to even tick over into that March month, rather than February. There’s always a bit of a psychological thing, which is, ah, the weather’s getting warmer. It’s a little bit nicer. We had a nice couple of days at the weekend with some sunshine. Maybe it all feels a little bit safer.

James Parton:
Yeah. It’s not dark when you wake up.

Joe Glover:
Exactly. Yeah. It makes a huge difference though, doesn’t it? So, we’re bringing back, I think in the first round, so we are now going to run our events every two months, rather than every month in person, in each location. I think in the first round we’re going to have in the region of eight events, eight to 10 events straight off the bat. We’ve dropped some that we had before, and we picked up a couple more. But the focus of those events, we used to have two speakers at these events, and now we’re just going to have one. Then that very much goes back to what I was saying earlier, that the focus of these in-person events is going to be connection. Then we’re still going to maintain the online schedule, but the focus of that is going to be about education.

Even within that, there’s an interesting behavior thing, which is that at the beginning of COVID, everyone was attending our events live. We still get multiple hundreds of people attending our events live. Every event that we’ve had for this past month has had over 1000 signups, which is the first time we’ve crossed that benchmark, which means to say that people still want online events, even if they want it less. But what I have observed is a lot of folks are engaging with these content after the fact as well. So, we make sure that all of our sessions online are available on YouTube, and on our podcast, and on our blog and then our newsletter afterwards.

So, the trend that I see happening over the course of this year is a continuation of that really, in that our live audiences will probably proportionately continue to shrink, but gladly we’re growing at a pace which is outstripping that specific trend. But more folks will choose to engage with our content after the fact. So, making that content available in a digestible form is really, really important. I think that’s what we’ll be doing too. So, hopefully that’s a useful answer. Hopefully that’s actually a useful answer for people listening, in that they can say, there’s a lesson there for me, which is making sure that the content is available afterwards, if you’re doing online stuff. Also that you can be doing online and in-person, but use them for different things.

James Parton:
Yeah. Yeah. So, people listening, where can they find out all about the world of The Marketing Meetup?

Joe Glover:
So, they can head to themarketingmeetup.com, or you can find me on LinkedIn. I’m on there far too much. My name’s Joe Glover. You can listen to our podcast, The Marketing Meetup Podcast. You can get our newsletter. I do my best to make it educational and entertaining. There is a multitude of ways. You can join our Facebook group as well, that’s a private Facebook group with about 4,000 people in there as well. Loads of opportunities to engage with The Marketing Meetup. So, yeah. Come onboard. It’s a lot of fun.

James Parton:
Well, amazing. I mean, thanks again for taking the time. I mean, it’s so great to hear the story. You deserve everything coming your way. It’s just been fantastic to see the growth of what you’re doing. Great to be associated with all of your success.

Joe Glover:
Well, I appreciate you and I appreciate your part in the story as well.

James Parton:
It’s a minor part, it’s a minor part.

Joe Glover:
Well, whatever it is, it’s important. So, it’s appreciated.

James Parton:
Fantastic. Well, thanks so much. Look forward to getting this out to everyone.

So, thanks again to Joe for coming on today’s show. The show has been produced by Carl Homer of Cambridge TV, and you can listen to previous episodes by searching for Inside The Bradfield centre on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, SoundCloud, Stitcher, Amazon Music, or by visiting bradfieldcentre.com. If you have a spare two seconds, please give us a five star review. It will really help other people discover the show.

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• Inside The Bradfield Centre Podcast