Podcast: Inside The Bradfield Centre Podcast Episode 40 — Cambridge&

In the first Inside The Bradfield Centre podcast of 2022, James chats with Harriet Fear, Director of Cambridge&. We explore Harriet’s career, the origins of Cambridge& and the services they provide. The Bradfield Centre is a supporting organisation of Cambridge&.

Transcript

James Parton:
Welcome to the Inside the Bradfield Center Podcast, where we tell the stories of the companies, partners, and staff that make the Bradfield Centre community so special. I’m James Parton, Managing Director of the Bradfield Centre, and joining me today is Harriet Fear, who’s the CEO of Cambridge&.

James Parton:
So Harriet, thanks so much for sparing some of your valuable time to come and talk to us today. Very much appreciated. Why don’t we just start off with a little bit about your background and some of the things you’ve been up to over your career that I think we’ll all be interested to learn more about that?

Harriet Fear:
Oh, thank you, James. And I’m really, really delighted to be talking with you today and I know that you’re a big supporter of lots of the things I do, so thank you for that and really looking forward to this going out to your listeners.

Harriet Fear:
So, yeah, so I was a diplomat for 21 years with the British Foreign Office, worked in, gosh, I think at the last count about 17 in different countries, mainly on crisis issues. So some I could go into and some I won’t, but half of my foreign office career was working in the commercial field, so supporting small and medium-sized companies to trade internationally and encouraging quality foreign direct investment into the UK.

Harriet Fear:
And then in 2009 I left to run an international membership organisation called One Nucleus, which during my eight years there, well I left because we won an award for being the best in the world and I thought it’s probably time to move on. And during that time, I’d been working in life sciences since about 2003, I ran the National Life Sciences Trade Team for the government for UK Trade and Investment at the time. So that was the natural precursor to then moving on to run One Nucleus.

Harriet Fear:
And when I was at One Nucleus, I was asked by David Cameron, who was the then prime minister, if I would be one of business ambassadors. Actually, Business Ambassador for Number 10, so this was about promoting UK life sciences and healthcare internationally when I was going about my day job. And then in 2017 I left to do all sorts of other interesting things, set up my own little consultancy. But for the last three years I’ve been predominantly concentrating on, and now work full time, on a new-ish organisation, which is very exciting, called Cambridge&.

James Parton:
Yeah, I mean obviously you and I have had many conversations about Cambridge&, but in a second I’ll ask you to explain exactly what that is, but let’s just jump back and pick up on some of that experience. I mean obviously a really varied set of experiences there. And also, you’re an MBE, I believe. So, tell us the story about the MBE. How did that come about?

Harriet Fear:
Well, the story there James is you’re not supposed to know.

James Parton:
Oh, okay.

Harriet Fear:
And I genuinely don’t know. So when you see people on the television saying, “Oh my goodness, it was a massive surprise.” It genuinely is because you never know who’s nominated you. What I do know, having nominated people myself, is that, because anyone can nominate anyone, which is lovely for this country and it means that lots of people who might not normally be recognised for their charitable work or whatever, normal people can be recognised, which is really rather wonderful.

Harriet Fear:
It was funny, I got a brown envelope through the door in April 2016 and I thought it was someone telling me that maybe I’d not filled out my tax return quite right. You always default to something like that when you get a brown envelope through with a government stamp on it. And it was saying that the queen would be delighted if you would accept this MBE for services to healthcare and life sciences. And I couldn’t have been more staggered, to be honest.

Harriet Fear:
If I was asked specifically why I thought I may be nominated, I don’t know by whom, but I would imagine it could be because of the breadth and depth of fortune I’d had to deal with and support life sciences and healthcare companies from 2003 right through to that date in 2016, both in government and obviously as Chief Executive of One Nucleus. And obviously the work I was doing, quite a lot of work advising Number 10 so I led international missions around the world and that sort of thing. So I guess somebody somewhere thought that that was something to celebrate and yeah, I couldn’t be more proud. It was wonderful.

James Parton:
Congratulations. So I mean, there’s an obvious link to that rich experience with Cambridge&, but why don’t we spend a little bit of time just talking about Cambridge&, exactly what it is, how it came to be. Why don’t you tell us the origin story of the history of it?

Harriet Fear:
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So Cambridge&, we present ourselves as the shop window for the knowledge-intensive sectors of Greater Cambridge, so Cambridge City and a 20 mile radius. So we present ourselves as the showcase of the knowledge-intensive sectors in that region to the world in a joined up way with a view to attracting in quality foreign direct investment. If you like, that’s sort of the elevator pitch, but for years, James, to be honest, when I was at One Nucleus prior to that, a number of membership organisations and myself and others would talk about how Cambridge needed to really be joined up in how it presents itself to the world. And we’re the best one in the world, we were all really, really busy people, and it never really got to the stage of having one organisation that would be that vehicle.

Harriet Fear:
And that was no one’s fault, it was just we all had different KPIs as membership organisations and there wasn’t any organisation that was this one shop window that everybody felt comfortable getting behind. Anyway, fast forward to 2017 and the university took an interest in this. There were a number of global companies that were feeding back that Cambridge really needed to be joined up because we’ve got this world-class science, we’ve got incredible entrepreneurship, we’ve got great funding models, the ecosystem is one of the most robust in the world across our knowledge-intensive sectors, but actually for big and smaller companies overseas that are seeking to penetrate to that ecosystem, it was very well known but it was only well known to the people that knew it.

Harriet Fear:
So Professor Andy Neely at the University and Mike Anstey from Cambridge Innovation Capital took it upon themselves, thank goodness, to interact with a whole range of senior stakeholders across what I describe as A, B, and C, so academia, business, and the civic community in Greater Cambridge, to ascertain how we could all across those three key areas, how we could all work better together, rising tide floats all boats, how we could work better to not necessarily sell ourselves, but present ourselves to the world in a more joined up way.

Harriet Fear:
And so fast forward to beginning of 2020 and we’d got a working group together representing lots of different parts of the ecosystem and I did a raft of work identifying different stakeholders. We did a load of brand articulation and the upshot was that we came up with a really exciting narrative about the Cambridge story, one source of truth if you like, which the great and the good of Cambridge really liked. And actually further afield, the brand articulation that we did as the working groups went from all levels, from Lord Willits, who when he was the science minister, was a big champion of Cambridge, through to tiny startups and everything in between.

Harriet Fear:
And so we created this narrative, the overarching narrative about Cambridge, and then drilled down into what I’d describe as a razor-like focus for the website into three sectors. So this is just, I say just, it’s purely about the strengths and the expertise and the world class innovation that’s in life sciences and healthcare as one sector, in advanced manufacturing as another, and in tech, so deep tech, and everything in between. So we’re not seeking to be the equivalent, for example, of a London and Partners, which obviously has a tourism element to it. This is all about, it’s about three things. It’s about showcasing those sectors to the world in a joined up way, and we’ve got the biggest companies and smaller companies right behind us. So our arm AstraZeneca, right the way through to smaller companies.

Harriet Fear:
So, the first point is that it’s this showcase to the world, but the second point is that it’s really what I would describe as a concierge service. So for those Chief Executives, budding entrepreneurs, brilliant companies around the world that are thinking, “How on earth do I penetrate the Cambridge ecosystem?” And they can come to Cambridge& and I’m not suggesting that I and Cambridge& can do all the heavy lifting, but we’re the starting point and then we draw in and work with all those really crucial membership, organisations, commercial service providers, the universities, both, Anglia Ruskin as well as the University of Cambridge and others, to make sure that those organisations have the best possible joined up experience of what Cambridge is.

Harriet Fear:
Somebody once described, when I was doing the research, Cambridge as the Minstrel sweet. So hard on the outside, but once you’re in, it’s really soft. And I think, I’d seen at One Nucleus, to be honest James, a number of big companies that were saying, “Actually we’re quite confused about what Cambridge is.” And so the problem was that the experience that a company would have would be dependent upon who they knew already. So that could be an amazing experience or a terrible one. Well, let’s take the serendipity out of it and have that shop window.

Harriet Fear:
So I mentioned two areas, the shop window and the concierge service, and then the third part of it, and all of these are equally important, is we have a very targeted program of focus on what sort of companies we are working with and bringing into discussions with the wider ecosystem.

James Parton:
No, that’s really interesting. And I’ve got a whole bunch of questions off the back of that, but I also wanted to just say that prior to taking the Bradfield role, I’d never worked in Cambridge before, so I’d seen that from the outside as well in a prior role, say for example, I was working at a company called Twilio, which works with a lot of technology startups, and it was always difficult to figure out how to penetrate Cambridge because it felt like it was a bit of its own ecosystem.

James Parton:
So that lack of a front door, I certainly experienced that personally and that was a lot of the kind of thinking that went into the philosophy of the Bradfield Center as well. We wanted the Bradfield Centre to feel like it was an open gateway that anyone could come and enjoy spending time at, rather than it being a member-only organisation or where you had to have membership to participate. So it chimes with a lot of our thinking. And I also like the fact, you’ve managed to herd the cats, you’ve managed to bring together-

Harriet Fear:
Oh, I’d never say that, James. You may say that, I couldn’t possibly comment.

James Parton:
But bringing together both public and private sector of the university to actually get alignment, that’s no small achievement. So, congratulations.

Harriet Fear:
Thank you. It’s funny you should say that because, yes, that ABC, academia, business, and the civic community, and a lot of people say to me, “Oh, how come this is working now?” Because it has been tried before. I mean we, as an ecosystem, have known for a long time that this is needed, not particularly to be competitive with other parts of the UK, but to recognise internationally that we need to have our act together. Yeah. It’s interesting you should say about the herding cats, because people have said, “Oh well, why is it working now?” And I think there are two key reasons. One is because the university is crucially involved. Andy and his team, you could call them the convening power for it, and of course if the university is interested, then that makes others take note.

Harriet Fear:
And the second reason, which is equally, if possibly not more important, is that we are not yet another membership organisation. The working group was very clear right from the beginning that this isn’t going to be yet another layer. There are amazing membership organisations in Cambridge doing really specialist work, and there was no desire or need for Cambridge& to avert any of those. And so, because we’re not another membership organisation, our model is not that. It means that we can wrap around the ecosystem and so, I mean I can talk about some examples of some of the things I’m working on, but if you take a big inward investment opportunity that might come to Cambridge&, it can come to me, I could never be an expert in everything and never claim to be, but the point now is that the likes of One Nucleus, Cambridge Wireless, Cambridge Network, Cambridge Ahead, Cambridge Cleantech, all these really amazing organisations are right behind that shop window.

Harriet Fear:
So a lot of the narrative with the website, just as a very basic point, was written by those experts that sit in those organisations. And when I’m putting together visit programs or whether I’m putting together a proposition for a company, I draw on all those experts, Cambridge University Health Partners, the university, all sorts of different parts of the ecosystem to make sure that we’re pulling it apart and putting it back together for the best possible experience for that potential customer of Cambridge.

James Parton:
Yeah, whereas I guess prior to Cambridge&, it would’ve been a little bit random in terms of the engagement point into the cluster. They might have gone into a membership organisation and started there or relied on say, a personal introduction. That’s the gap that you guys are filling, right? Is a consistent level of experience for anyone looking to work with Cambridge as a whole.

Harriet Fear:
Yeah, absolutely. And really importantly, the data that we’re using, because the university is very involved in this, I can’t for a second use data that’s a bit dodgy or make any claims. I can’t make any claims that aren’t true and accurate and easily traceable. So I use the University’s Center for Business Research for all of the data that I produce about Cambridge. And I work closely with Cambridge Innovation Capital on the business data that they’ve got, the likes of Beauhurst and others, as you would expect.

Harriet Fear:
So when I’ve put together, I’m just putting together at the moment a big proposition around the strengths of Cambridge and dementia, all of the data that I’ve used for that is fully traceable and all accurate and true. And the way that I’m finding that it’s working is, if there are a number of people from Cambridge that will be speaking at a particular event, or if I’ve arranged the event and obviously I’ve got all of the right people and the right experts in the room, we all use that data.

Harriet Fear:
So what you find is that nobody is sitting there as the customer or as the client thinking, “Well hang on a sec, I thought there were nine unicorns, you’re saying there are 22.” And somebody else is saying there are 14. This is really joined up. This is everyone [inaudible 00:15:32] the Cambridge& data. We had a really lovely example of it in November last year when CIC hosted a group of 30 corporate venture leads from big companies, came into Cambridge. We had George Freeman in the front row, which was lovely, known George for years. At the end of the meeting, the feedback was that how joined up Cambridge was and it was fantastic to see. So, I presented the slide deck on our ecosystem and how it builds and what it looks like to these 30 corporate venture people and they’re from BP, they’re from Coca-Cola, they’re from the big companies, and they were just blown away by how joined up we are. And it isn’t credit to Cambridge&, this is the ecosystem actually telling its truth.

James Parton:
Yeah. Yeah. And you can get that slide deck from your website, I believe. Is that right?

Harriet Fear:
Yes. Yes. It’s on the… The website, we intentionally have very little mention of Cambridge& because it’s not about us actually, it’s about what are the strengths? That was the full passion right from the beginning for anyone involved in Cambridge&. And so there is a tab about Cambridge& on the homepage of the website, but the premise of the website is to showcase those three sectors and I’ve got brilliant champions and all sorts of vignette case studies and halo case studies, apparently that’s the word for the likes of AstraZeneca and Marshall and ARM, but yeah, on the Cambridge& tab, there is a slide deck, which is completely up to date and anybody can draw on it.

James Parton:
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James Parton:
You’ve started to touch on some of the answers to this question, but what’s the range of services that Cambridge& provides then to people looking to engage with Cambridge?

Harriet Fear:
Yeah. So it’s all about that hand holding. And I suppose the first thing to say is that one of the benefits of Cambridge& for the ecosystem, and I saw this when I was at One Nucleus a lot, and I know the chief execs of all the membership organisations would likely say similar, is that we suffered a lot from mission fatigue and companies, random companies and individuals and delegations coming into Cambridge. Now on the one hand, that’s an amazing thing. Cambridge is a magnet for interest and for companies that want to come here, but there was no way, there was no mechanism for anyone to look at the inquiries that Cambridge was getting and say, “Actually, that’s going to be an investment that could really benefit Cambridge and its society,” or, “That’s actually just a lot of noise and none of us want to do it,” because we were all very polite and we all wanted to serve everyone.

Harriet Fear:
So back in the day, and I’m not suggesting Cambridge& has completely solved this because all sorts of organisations will get independent approaches to host visits from potential international investors, but the idea is that people can pass this to Cambridge&, and we can take a look at it and say, really do the analytics on whether it’s, frankly the right thing to be spending time encouraging X or Y company to come into this region. Are they sustainable? Have they got a really good ESG policy? Are they here for the long term? So, it’s a really targeted and focused way of looking at foreign direct investment, rather than all of the different membership organisations, everyone feeling we have to serve everybody.

Harriet Fear:
So just moving on to what we actually do, it can be really light touch. I’m talking at the moment with a security company about their interests in their data tools and the offer that they have being of use to big companies around the world. Now that’s not necessarily something that’s at the heart of Cambridge&’s work, because our role is to handhold potential investors to physically set up here, but I can see that companies having a really, really robust way of being able to ascertain any issues with their security is going to be a really good thing for Cambridge. So really light touch. What I would do there, what I did there was just introduce them to Cambridge Wireless and to One Nucleus, because they are the ones that then have the relationships with the companies that might benefit from that. So, that’s just a really light touch example.

Harriet Fear:
But what we are absolutely here for, as I say, is the hand holding of potential high quality investors. So there are a couple of examples I can mention. Towards the end of last year, just to keep it current, there’s a Canadian listed pharmaceutical company that’s currently based in South America. And the Chief Executive is very keen for their global HQ to be based in Europe. I can’t name the company yet, but he did a beauty parade of various places in Europe and in the UK, came to Oxford, Cambridge, and London. And delighted to say that after his visit to Cambridge, he decided, ran it by his board and they are going to be coming to Cambridge and setting up a small operation, which will build and he could probably bring in two other companies that he’s got as well that will set up here. It’s really exciting. So it was as a direct result of that joined up approach that he had his head turned, I would say.

Harriet Fear:
So he’d been to London, and I’m not comparing competitively here, but in the UK he’d been to London and Oxford already and Cambridge was his last stop on his visit just before Christmas. So I thought, “Well, we’ll see how this goes.” So I gave him the presentation, I’d arranged for him to visit Cambridge Science Park, Granta Park, and to take a look at the Cambridge Biomedical Campus and to spend time with the Milner Institute and with Cambridge University Health Partners and with the university. And at the end of our hour and a half together, it was really funny actually, because he also met with the amazing Jason Mellad from Start Codon, and Jason joined the end of my meeting with him, because I had nothing that was private.

Harriet Fear:
And it was really funny because the three of us were sitting there and the CEO said, “Oh do you know? I really, really wanted to concentrate on the golden triangle and I’ve just been blown away with what I’ve heard about the ecosystem.” And I said, “Yeah, yeah.” I said, “Golden triangle is incredible.” I said, “If you look at it, it’s right up there with Massachusetts and West Coast.” And he said, “Oh no, no, Harriet.” He said, “You misunderstand me.” He said, “What I’m blown away with and what’s so compelling is the Cambridge offer.” I said, “Oh, well then. Fantastic. Amazing.” And Jason just smiled that amazing smile he’s got as if to say, “Wow, this is now working. This is now working in a tangible way.”

Harriet Fear:
Another huge, the one I’ve just described is relatively small start, but big plans to grow. But back in September, I was working on a large quantum investment worth 500 million potentially to whichever city or cluster in the UK gets it. Again, I can’t mention the name of the company yet, but I can confide, confide in a podcast, but I led the Cambridge pitch to the company, one of the co-founders and one of his colleagues, and at the end of that meeting, he’d confessed that he’d been a PhD in Cambridge and thought it was all really confusing and messy and that his opinion was completely transformed by what he’d heard. So, it feels like we’re getting somewhere.

James Parton:
Excellent. Okay. Well, that’s really good. So I mean, I guess when we look ahead, it’s still a relatively young organisation even though it’s been talked about and planned about for quite some time. So, what does the ambition of Cambridge& look like? And what does good look like in terms of the kind of targets that you might be working towards or the kind of milestones that you have to achieve to show the kind of impact that you guys are having?

Harriet Fear:
Yeah, absolutely. So I talked about that target program of how to see the whites of the eyes of high-quality, long-term potential inward investors. So good for us, we’re really clear on this, is a physical presence by the right sort of companies against the backdrop of what I’ve already described in terms of what good looks like in terms of an inward investing in a long term, sustainable, fitting into our areas of excellence, whether that’s gene and cell therapy or genomics or quantum or AI or whatever it might be, but it’s physical presence, so job creation, wealth creation for Cambridge. And actually for much further across the Cambridge area, and ultimately the UK, because as you probably know, James, Cambridge gives back a billion pounds net per annum to the UK economy. So, the more that Cambridge can be to targeted and focused and high quality and have the right sort of international investment in it, the more the UK will benefit.

Harriet Fear:
So it is ultimately about physical presence. That said, I’m very conscious. I spent some time with AstraZeneca when Pascal Soriot, the Chief Exec, was considering Cambridge as a location because I was close to [inaudible 00:25:06] when I was at One Nucleus, and I’m very, very conscious that it’s highly unlikely that Cambridge& or anyone would have the influence over a huge company like that to relocate. An American pharmaceutical company should relocate its global headquarters to Cambridge is highly unlikely. So we’re realistic about what is appropriate, but the idea is for R&D centres or manufacturing centres or wherever Cambridge can add value to the company and the company can add value to Cambridge in having their R&D, their business development in our ecosystem for the greater good.

Harriet Fear:
So that’s what success looks like. In terms of how we go about it, I have a long list. It’s a list of under 100 companies, but it’s still quite a long list of global companies that Cambridge& is seeking to engage with and I’ve prioritised that to 10 and I’m working with what I describe as the great and the good and the ecosystem to work out what’s the compelling differences? What the compelling advantages of Cambridge for those companies. So 10 global companies, that was our starting point.

Harriet Fear:
So, that’s one area. The second area in terms of who we target is something that came out, actually we incorporated just before the pandemic, a month before the pandemic. So my VIP red carpet service had to become a digital VIP red carpet service quite quickly, but one of the things that came up during 2020, particularly when people who were fresh to Cambridge& and people who were fresh to the website, they said, “Actually, what would be really interesting,” because that global target list is going to be on the target list of Boston, of Milan, of Sydney, of Singapore. None of those would be a surprise to any of your listeners, who those types of companies might be. But actually, what brilliant entrepreneurs and others in the ecosystem were saying to me was, “Harriet, what would be really, really, really exciting would be to look at who the unicorns of the future are.”

Harriet Fear:
Now, a crystal ball would be great, but actually to do some primary and secondary research on the unicorns of the future, so companies around the world that are working in the space that Cambridge is brilliant at, and they might not know about Cambridge or they might have a perception of it which is not the truth, we might not be on their radar, they might not be on ours. And so over the last months I’ve been working with PhD and post-docs and others on specific campaigns. So the first was in genomics, because let’s look at the areas that Cambridge is best at, let’s not try and sell something that we might be pretty good at, but not amazing. So genomics was an obvious starting point.

Harriet Fear:
So I now have an amazing report working with others. I didn’t write it, I worked with people on it, amazing report of 20 incredible unicorns of the future around the world, prioritised to three or four, and I’m reaching out to those organisations, working with organisations like the Welcome Genome Campus and the Sanger. Again, none of this is in splendid Harriet isolation. I’m not going to have credibility and Cambridge& won’t have credibility rocking up to talk to any organisation independently. We have to make sure that we’re working with, collaborating with, and bringing in the best experts that are already in Cambridge and some of them have relationships with some of these companies.

Harriet Fear:
So the very focused targeting work that we’ve been doing on genomics. I’m working currently with the Masters in Biotech and Engineering program at the university, I’ve got a team of four brilliant young people who are working on exactly the same model in gene and cell therapy, a long list of 30 to 50 companies around the world that aren’t on our radar, drilling that down to 10 to 15, who are then put groups around and we’ll work out how best to approach them, having already worked out against a set of criteria that they could benefit from knowing a great deal about Cambridge and potentially being here.

Harriet Fear:
So, that’s the second area. And then the third area is I’m really delighted to be working with the new mayoral growth service, Growth Works, which I know you’re familiar.

James Parton:
Yeah. They’re actually in our building now as well.

Harriet Fear:
Fantastic. So yes, I’m working with Rebecca and Rosa and the inward investment team. They have a responsibility that’s a lot wider, obviously, than Cambridge&. They have a responsibility for inward investment across the whole of Cambridgeshire, but when it comes to Cambridge, we work really closely and we have a synergistic relationship where we share and they often ask me to… That herding of the cats and getting the story right and then presenting that to potentially inward investors. So, those are the three main ways that we are currently seeking to identify the best possible inward investment for all.

Harriet Fear:
I’m very conscious that many who might be listening will be thinking, “Well, Cambridge is doing brilliantly already,” but actually we need to be very, very savvy about appreciating that there are other cities around the world that are really, really compelling in their marketing. And often a number of companies, particularly countries like Singapore, give all sorts of financial incentives to inward investors that potentially the UK can’t for all sorts of reasons. So we’ve got to be really, really smart and make sure that the growth that’s coming in is good growth.

Harriet Fear:
So that means it’s going to be economic advantage for the whole of the region. I’m very mindful in my role as the Chair of Cambridge Ahead, which is another thing I do. Cambridge& is my full-time job, but I’m also proud to be Chair of Cambridge Ahead, and we’re very aware that good growth for the region is really important because if there’s good, sustainable growth with conscience, then that will benefit parts of society. And we’re very aware that Cambridge constantly gets the worst rating for being the most disparate city in the country between the haves and the have nots. So, we want to make sure as Cambridge& that we’re encouraging in and handholding those companies that have a really long-term innovation commitment to the region, with a view to putting wealth back into the area and job creation for all.

James Parton:
I think it’s just such a positive step for the region, that Cambridge& is now there and you’re doing this work. It’s such a huge leap forward. It’s exciting to be working with you. Yeah, looking forward to how things develop moving forward. Where can people find out more about what’s going on?

Harriet Fear:
Yeah. So when we were doing the brand articulation, I hadn’t led on anything that major before and I had no idea how polarised opinion can be about names. And so we had a very large debate about whether it should be Cambridge+ as the plus sign or Cambridge& as the ampersand. And so we went with the ampersand, and the idea there is that it’s Cambridge and everyone, or it could be Cambridge and Singapore, or it could be Cambridge and technology, or it could be Cambridge and quantum, or Cambridge and genomics, or Cambridge and you, whatever. But the problem with that, having a name Cambridge&, ampersand, is that you can’t put that into a website name or a LinkedIn name, so we are www.cambridgeand.com.

James Parton:
Perfect, and we’ll put that in the show notes as well. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Really enjoyed chatting to you. And thanks again for coming onto the show.

James Parton:
So thank you again to Harriet for coming onto the show. Very much appreciated. Today’s show was produced by Carl Homer of Cambridge TV. Inside the Bradfield Center is available on all the major podcast platforms and bradfieldcentre.com. If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a five star review as it will really help other people discover the show.

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